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 Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----

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SilverTip
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PostSubject: Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----   Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:12 pm

So you want to rebarrel that old mosin?

Below are just a few places to pick up barrel blanks.  But first, it would be good to decide what caliber you will want to shoot. (Also worth mentioning, the Czech barrels have dried up.) Crying or Very sad

To keep the gun stock, the stock caliber is approx .311. This will allow you to shoot all 54r surplus ammo.

However, many people prefer the .308 bullet selections (for those loading their own ammo). So then shopping for a .308 barrel blank would be in order. But some people do have good results shooting .308 projectiles through their .311 stock barrels.  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]  

Or you could really be a pioneer and pick up a .338 barrel blank.  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Or maybe a 6mm?
(Dont forget to consider twist rates for what ever you decide on.)  


The possibilities are nearly endless. Maybe you will create a new cartridge that will take the sport shooting world by storm?

Maybe you will build the worst shooting rifle ever made?  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]  You never know unless you try.

My first build (.311), I achieved 0.4" groups with handloads. And groups under an inch with milsurp. I knew nothing about chambering and rebarreling. But I made sure to consult several friends and strangers, who have worked on plenty of guns.


This is not a comprehensive list. I would imagine I missed a few.

Heres a great start to rebarrel you mosin back to .311.
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The closest thing I can find from these guys is .312
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They also have a great list of .308 blanks
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These guys make a 5groove .311 with a 10" twist rate.
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Call these guys for a .311 longer than 16"
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For a great .308 barrel blank, you cant beat this price. I have one of these.
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Feel free to add to the list.


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No matter what route you go, ALWAYS check your headspace when
rebarreling anything. Gauges are inexpensive and easy to come by.
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Always have your finished rifle checked by a
qualified gunsmith before loading live ammo in it.


Last edited by SilverTip on Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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rberardo



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PostSubject: bull barrel install question   Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:57 pm

This interesting as I had called a couple companies and they said i could not put a 308 in a MN. So if I buy one of the 308 barrels, what would be left to to do in order for it to be usauable.

Would I have to thread the breach side in order to thread it onto the reciever or d they do that. Also, would I have to modify the bolt ? I know I would have to get the headspace correct.

If you can send me a link, I would appreciate it, I have looked at this before and just got 600 before I got the stock.

I went a different path myself, I got a 2 foot aluminum sleeve that I tapered (Inside) to match the outer barrel, I then tap screwed it on, 9 of them. (didnt really have to), with surplus ammo, I am under 1 inch group shooting off a bench. I floated the barreel, bedded the alumunim pillars and reciever, added a pistol grip, polished the trigger spring, milled a solid hex bar 12 inched to fit over the reciever for a scope and tapped 4 screws into the 24 inch alum barrel sleeve and two more into the other end of the reciever and finally cut the bolt hanlde, reattached a bent bolt to the back of it and dremmelled the side of the reciever to recieve the bent bold. I also added a cheek rest and but pad (recoil)

It works with the surplus ammo, but was ALOT of time. A bull barrel would have saved about 5 hours of drilling the tapper on the sleeve.

Here is the link to the siting target, the last 5 rounds are within 1 inch of each other, I was high right with the scope initially and worked it back down, I am still slightly right and will continue to work on it.

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Here are two pics of the MN with the Aluminum sleeve, I replaced the steel reciever cover with a aluminum hex that I carved out as seen in the second pic.

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Here is the hex aluminum reciever cover

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Last edited by rberardo on Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----   Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:19 pm

I would definitely like to learn more about your aluminum barrel sleeve. You can post pictures by hosting them on photobucket.com first. Or any other picture hosting site.

As for threading and chambering, heres the short version.

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Heres the long version.

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Yes, you can put a .308dia barrel on a Mosin. Infact, some were made that way from the factory. Though, the majority are .311. They may have thought you wanted to chamber a Win .308?

If you chamber and thread a .308 barrel for your mosin, you will then need to load .308 projectiles in your 7.62x54r ammo. You WILL NOT be able to shoot milsurp ammo (that is approx .311).
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rberardo



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PostSubject: Re: Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----   Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:10 am

I see green mountain has 27 inch barrel blanks. So if you ge one of these with a 311 chamber, 311 seems to have the same specs as a 7.62x54, does any other owrk other than headspacing need to be done?

also, If I get one with 308 chamber, i know I will have to shoot 308 rounds, do I need to do anything for headpsace or bolt modification to handle this.

thanks,
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Zeiss Ikon



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PostSubject: Re: Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:52 pm

I agree, I suspect the vendor thought you were going to chamber .308 Winchester/7.62x51 NATO in your Mosin -- likely a bad idea, given the rated pressure for the Mosin action vs. the SAAMI pressure for .308 Win rounds. FWIW, if you do barrel a Mosin with a .308 groove, you can fire factory or surplus 7.62x53R rounds; these are loaded for the Finnish .308 groove rifles and have .308 bullets (the only difference from 7.62x54R).

If you were to convert your Mosin for .308 Win, it'd be a major job; you'd have to weld in and remachine the bolt head for the smaller rimless case head and come up with a way to feed the rounds through a magazine designed for a .570 rim diameter, as well as control a round that's shorter both to the shoulder and overall. Honestly, if you're going to do this, you'd be ahead to look for a Mauser action that can take .308 pressure; the bolt face and magazine for all the 7 and 8 mm Mausers are already set up for the correct diameter rimless cartridge, so only length adaptations would be needed, if that (I believe there's a short action Mauser that's already the right length for .308).

The Green Mountain blanks are, as far as I know, either unchambered ("Gunsmith Special") or chambered for the cartridge they give in the description -- which I've seen on their site only as 7.62x39. The bore specs for their .311 groove barrels are correct for 7.62x54R, but you'll need to either completely chamber or rechamber, as well as headspacing and cutting the extractor relief after the barrel is threaded and shouldered.
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rberardo



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PostSubject: Re: Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----   Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:31 am

so it looks like for about 200, you can get a bull barrel for the MN from lothar-walterhttp
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they say that all that would be left is the headspacing. not a bad deal. you could spend 250 and get a 32 inch barrel vs 28, is there any advantge getting a 32 inch barrel for accuracy?
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PostSubject: Re: Where to get a bull barrel for your Mosin<-----   Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:21 pm

rberardo wrote:
is there any advantge getting a 32 inch barrel for accuracy?

It all depends on your end goal. If you need your bullet to retain its maximum velocity at maximum distance (1000yds) then a longer barrel is pretty much the way to go.

Technically, the longer the barrel, the more accurate. But there is so many other things to factor in. Such as the cartridges capacity to be loaded to take advantage of that particular barrel length.

A shorter barrel is stiffer, and can have less 'whip' therefore thats one instance where a shorter would be more accurate.

If you figure out what you need (what your intended use is) you can then you can get close to 'the best of both worlds' so to speak.
In other words, if you are only concerned with accuracy and not so much velocity, you can have a 20" short barrel and be well off.
But if you are wanting to consistently shoot out beyond 800yds, the maximum length barrel would be a good start HOWEVER, some people have found load data for their particular cartridge that allows them to take a few inches off their barrel and not lose any accuracy, and with insignificant velocity loss.

Dont take my word for any of that. Google around and see what you can find.

Heres a good article.

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BARREL LENGTH AND THE

PRECISION RIFLE

Why shorter barrels may often be better

By Eugene Nielson



"There’s a growing trend to shorter barrels on tactical precision rifles.

In years past, a 24- to 26-inch barrel was practically a given. Accepted

wisdom was that it was necessary to sacrifice a little maneuverability

to gain a more complete powder burn and significantly reduced flash signature.

Today, it’s not uncommon to rifles with significantly shorter barrels.


Attitudes
are are changing. The desire for more maneuverable rifles for the
urban setting has led a

growing number of manufacturer's to come out with shorter-barreled precision

rifles. This brings up an obvious question -- how short is

too short? What sacrifices, if any, are made by going to a shorter

barrel?




To answer
these questions,

we must first start by taking a look at the subject of internal ballistics. Internal
ballistics is a very complex subject. There are many factors

which affect the internal performance of a given cartridge and bullet. Factors
affecting internal performance include the powder chamber capacity;

load density; amount and burning characteristics of the propellant powder;

temperature of the propellant prior to ignition; uniformity and speed of

ignition; diameter, weight and bearing length of the bullet; and the length

of the barrel and its interior dimensions.




Longer
barrels give

the powder more time to work on propelling the bullet. For this reason

longer barrels generally provide higher velocities, everything else being

equal. However, the gas pressure behind the bullet diminishes as

the bullet moves down the bore. Given a long enough barrel, there

will eventually be a point in which the bore friction and air pressure

in front of the bullet will equal the gas pressure behind it. At

this point, the velocity of the bullet will start to decrease.




There isn't any clear-cut

answer as to how much velocity will be lost per inch of barrel length reduction.

The amount of loss is closely tied to the expansion ratio. As previously

noted, the type and amount of powder, as well as the weight and bearing

length of the bullet, also play a major part. Rifles with high expansion

ratios (smaller calibers) tend to lose less velocity than rifles with low

expansion ratios (larger calibers).



Tactical Operations

.308 Winchester (7.62x51mm NATO) caliber Tango 51 rifle, which I wrote

about in the April 2000 issue of S.W.A.T., typifies the trend to

rifles with shorter barrels. Tac Ops considers a barrel of length

of 18 to 20 inches to be optimal for the urban environment, with 18 inches

the preferred length.




During the development

of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down

to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were

fired at each invrement. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides

for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal

Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement

standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32

feet per second (fps).




Shorter barreled rifles

are more versatile, being equally suitable for both urban and rural operations.

According to Tac Ops, there isn't any need to go to the 26-inch barrel

unless you want to go to a heavier bullet or push the round to higher velocity

using more powder or use a slower burning powder. The Los Angeles

County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) performed

tests similar to those conducted by Tac Ops and came to similar conclusions.

Tommy Lambrecht, SEB

armorer and Special Weapons Team long rifle expert, recently chronographed

the Federal Match 168-gr. BTHP rounds. Lambrecht said that the muzzle

velocity was averaging around 2,660 to 2,670 feet per second (fps) from

the 20-inch-barreled Tango 51 that Tac Ops delivered to him.




The accuracy of the

Tango 51 isn't hampered by the shorter barrel. While at the range

with the Tango 51 we were consistently getting sub-1/4 MOA accuracy at

100 yards. All of this is good and well you may say, but what about

longer ranges? Well, the shorter barrel doesn't hamper longer range


accuracy either.




As I mentioned in my

article on the Tango 51, San Fernando (CA) PD Special Response Team long

rifle marksman Chris Colelli once fired a 3-shot sub-1/4-inch group at

200 yards with his department's 20-inch-barreled Tango 51. After

the article appeared, Colelli fired a 3-shot group from the rifle at 700

yards that measured just under 2 inches center to center. The group,

which was witnessed by several credible spotters, was shot off of a bipod

with one small sandbag.


Colelli is a superb

marksman, one of the best that I've seen, but he would be the first to

admit that an element of luck played a role in this feat. Groups

like these certainly aren't typical of what could be realistically expected

under actual operational conditions. Still, they show that the rifle

is capable of phenomenal accuracy provided that the operator does his or

her part.




Although
the 20-inch barrel remains very popular with agencies purchasing the
Tango 51, many agencies prefer an 18-inch barrel for its added
maneuverability. With the 18-inch barrel, you're still shooting around
2,630 fps with Federal Match. The target certainly isn't going to know
if he's being hit with a bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2,660 fps or
2,630 fps. The
terminal ballistics are identical.




Going to an 18-inch

barrel doesn't adversely effect the accuracy of the rifle. Tac Ops

has achieved incredible accuracy with the shorter barrels. The 18-inch

barreled Tango 51 rifles will still shoot sub-1/4 MOA. The performance

is just as good with the 18-inch barrel as it is with the 20-inch barrel

out to a distance of 600 yards. After initially going with the 20-inch

barrel for their Tango 51s, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department

has decided to go with the 18-inch barrel and Tac Ops 30 suppressor on

all new Tango 51s that they purchase.




Shorter barrels are

actually often more accurate than their longer counterparts. A rifle

barrel is a cantilevered beam and as such they sag. More sag results

in more whip and vibration as the bullet travels down the bore. Barrel

sag induces longitudinal stress that can cause stringing of shots.

Using a shorter, heavier barrel minimizes reduces stress and accuracy-robbing

barrel vibration. A shorter barrel is stiffer and vibrates at a less.




Barrel length and contour

determines the relative "stiffness" of a barrel, i.e., how much a

barrel will tend to vibrate. Shorter barrels generally have oscillations

of smaller amplitude. than longer barrels. Thicker barrels generally

have fewer vibration nodes than slimmer barrels. The ringing frequency

of a thicker barrel is higher and the oscillations are of a smaller amplitude

and of a shorter duration. This equates to less barrel motion at

the muzzle. The use of a shorter barrel also allows the use of a

heavier contour without making the rifle unwieldy.




The use of a heavier

contour tends to provide less variation between a cold shot and any subsequent

follow-up shots. Barrels expand as they heat up. As the barrel

expands any stress on or in the barrel will cause stringing of the shots.

Bore expansion results in an increase in group size. Heavier barrels

tend to be more consistent because they take longer to heat up.




An 18- to 20-inch barrel

may be fine for a caliber like the .308 Win., but what about calibers such

as the .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62x66B)? Many agencies are

opting for this cartridge as a result of its long range ballistics.

The .308 Win. has a maximum effective range of about 800 yards. While

this is certainly more than enough for most law enforcement scenarios (law

enforcement snipers rarely have to engage targets at more than 100 yards),

the .300 Win. Mag. does increase the maximum effective range by an additional

300 yards, for a maximum effective range of about 1,100 yards. The

.300 Win. Mag. is also a flatter shooting cartridge at all ranges, although

this comes with the price of additional recoil.




Many agencies purchasing

a .300 Win. Mag. will primarily be employing the rifle in an urban environment.

The common reason for opting for the .300 Win. Mag. that it extends the

capabilities of the rifle to longer ranges than the .308 Winchester is

capable in those rare situations where longer range capability is necessary. This
leads to an obvious question -- will going to a shorter barrel for

added maneuverability in the urban environment adversely affect long range

performance of a rifle in this caliber?




To find the answers,

Tac Ops took a 26-inch barreled .300 Win. Mag. and chopped the barrel down

in one-inch increments as they previously did with the .308 Winchester.

Ten rounds of Federal Match 190-grain BTHP Gold Medal were fired

from each increment. No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches. Velocity
loss started to occur only after they went below 22 inches.




As a result of their

tests, Tac Ops decided not to go below 22 inches on their .300 Win. Mag.

tactical precision rifle, the Alpha 66. According to Mike Rescigno,

President of Tac Ops, the 22-inch barrel is ideal for the tactical shooters

that are going to use the 190-grain Federal Match ammo. There isn't

any loss of performance by going to the 22-inch barrel and this round. The
Alpha 66 still provides 1/4-MOA or better accuracy.




For heavier bullets

or hotter loads with slower burning powders, Rescigno recommends a 24-

to 26-inch barrel. The longer barrel length is necessary for complete

powder combustion with these loads. Rescigno adds that he has a 24-inch

barrel on his personal .300 Win. Mag. just in case he wants "to shoot the

heavier 220-grain bullets with a lot of powder."

At this point, I can

hear readers asking, "What about muzzle blast and muzzle flash? Won't

they be a problem with the shorter barrels?" These are valid concerns.

With both calibers, shorter barrels do increase the muzzle blast and muzzle

flash somewhat. It's not as much as one might expect. From

a practical standpoint, the differences between a 24- or 26-inch barrel

and an 18- or 20-inch barrel are negligible, except when slow burning powders

are used.




Any concerns over the

muzzle blast and sound/flash signature can easily be eliminated by the

use of a sound suppressor (silencer). With today's compact, low-maintenance

suppressors,

such as the Tac Ops 30, there's no reason that all tactical precision rifles

shouldn't be so equipped. More and more law enforcement agencies

are coming to this conclusion.




The use of a sound

suppressor provides a number of advantages to both the shooter and spotter.

The suppressor greatly reduces any ground disturbance and eliminates any

muzzle flash/sound signature that can identify the position or disturb

vision and hearing. There isn't any necessity for the shooter or

spotter to wear hearing protection. Many shooters find that their

accuracy improves when a suppressor is employed due to the resulting reduction

in the muzzle blast and recoil. The reduction in recoil also permits

quicker follow-up shots.




A sound suppressor

can substantially reduce the recoil velocity and recoil energy of a rifle.

Gas volume and gas pressure at the muzzle are major factors in the free

recoil energy produced by a rifle. Shorter barrels generally result

in increased gas volumes and higher gas pressures at the muzzle. All other
factors being equal, increased gas volumes and higher gas pressures

at the muzzle will increase the recoil velocity and free recoil energy.




Free recoil energy

is proportional to the square of the recoil velocity of the rifle.

Doubling the recoil velocity quadruples the free recoil energy. Sound

suppressors reduce the free recoil energy by suppressing the effects of

the expanding powder gasses. They also add weight, slowing the acceleration

of the rifle.




In summary, the appropriate

barrel length is closely tied to the caliber and the load or loads that

will be employed. If a shorter barrel provides equivalent or better

accuracy and little or no loss in velocity, why go to a longer barrel?

Why sacrifice maneuverability and add excess weight? While old attitudes

may die hard, chronographs and ballistics don't lie. Shorter barrels

are often better. The proof is in the performance."

SOURCE
Tactical Operations, Inc.
433 North Camden Dr. 4th

Fl. #239

Beverly Hills, Ca 90210
Phone 310 275-8797
Fax 323 933-3521
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