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 7.62x54r Improved

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northumbrian

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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:34 pm

Very, very cool  Cool 

I'm very interested in this, as I have my own plans to wildcat the 54r cartridge.

How happy are you with the performance of this cartridge, and is there anything you'd change?
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:53 pm

So far, i have no complaints. I had them loaded VERY conservatively so far. On the Vit140 loads I was getting some powder residue leak back about halfway down the case.  So it would definitely like to be a bit higher of a charge.

As far as anything I would change....
I designed the case around the 54r case. And theres nothing I would change about it (so far) Smile  . But I have been loading some Lapua cases (53r). And they seem to be a tad shorter than other new brass ive had.  So this results in a shorter neck than what I originally intended. The Lapua case is approx 2.085 in length.  Thats about all I can think of.


Last edited by SilverTip on Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:04 pm

How are you finding seating longer bullets with the short neck, with regards to keeping the round inline with the axis of the barrel?
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:20 pm

I have not noticed any increase in run out. I do use a Forster seating die. And use a homemade concentricity jig to check ammo. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:21 pm

I asked as that would be my only concern with a short neck, especially if using turned solid bullets with a bore rider and driving bands.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:26 pm

northumbrian wrote:
.... a bore rider and driving bands.

 scratchhead  Whats that?
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:56 pm

A bore rider is a section of the bullet that is exactly the diameter of the lands, and as such rides the bore.

Driving bands, are narrow band that extends past the bore rider in order to achieve a gas tight seal in the grooves.

This pic is from Cuttingedge bullets, and is about the best diagram I can find of a solid bullet.

Ok just tried to upload a pic, but failed,  idk
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:57 pm

Thats ok. I get what you are saying.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:03 pm

Good I'm glad you get the picture, not that I managed to post one.  Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:04 pm

Thats definately something to look into.  Are you turning your own bullets? I am planning to do some (eventually).
 I have some copper blanks on the shelf waiting.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:12 pm

I'm not turning my own just yet, as I'm trying to sort out the tooling for my lathe.
As I don't have CNC, I have to design the tool holder in order to achieve the correct radius on the Ogive.

But I am looking at trying to make a solid Copper version of the Berger Hybrid VLD, which have both a Tangent & Secant Ogive

So I have to make two radius turning attachments, one to create the Secant & the other to create the Tangent.
The trouble is I have a Hardinge HC turret lathe which does not have a lot of room between the top of the turret and the spindle axis.
but I have plenty of other Mosin things on the go at the moment, it's not a priority just yet.
I've got the trigger & stock to get finished first.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:15 pm

Well shyoot! I just sold a Hardinge HC turret lathe with automatic threading attachment.

Have another one im thinkin about selling. It doesnt have the threading attachment on it.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:31 pm

Mine doesn't have the threading attachment, but you know what I mean about the centre height to turret top.
but all things considered it's an amazingly accurate lathe. I love the thing.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:17 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

At last I finally figured it out  cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:16 pm

Heres an example of Lapua on left. And PPU on right.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:25 pm

I see what you mean about the Lapua brass being shorter.

I have a load of Prvi Partizan brass, How does it hold up to reloading after being fire formed to the improved shoulder?

Obviously the Lapua brss will hold up better in the long term, but what about changing the design slightly so as to give a longer neck on the Lapua brass?
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:30 pm

The PPU holds up very well. Forms fine. Ive only reloaded it once, and it held up on the 2nd firing also. 

To increase the neck length, one would only need to ream shallower (to a dimension they have determined). Luckily pretty simple fix. Smile   A drill stop on the reamer would suffice.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:34 pm

Yeah, a stop on the reamer is always an option, but only if you know your going to be using Lapua brass or know it's shorter.

I was thinking about it being easier to use any and all brass, if the cartridge is designed to fit the constraints of the shortest cartridge commercially available.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:39 pm

:edit: there is a large variance in "case length dimensions" below the maximum that function in my Mosin.  Due to a chipped case length trimmer pin  Evil or Very Mad   ive been trimming down to 2.045. The general published data ive found for Max Trim Length is 2.114.


If a longer neck is needed, reaming slightly shallower (with the 'improved' reamer) would allow the final cartridge to have a longer neck.

Reaming shallower would reduce the case dimensions slightly though. So new load data would need to be determined.


Last edited by SilverTip on Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:27 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:09 pm

I see your reasoning, and reaming the chamber accordingly will give a longer neck on the Lapua brass, with a slight reduction in case capacity.

I'm thinking more from the point of view, you've got a barrel chamber for the longer brass, and you decide you want to try or you get your hands on some Lapua brass, the result will be a shorter neck on the Lapua brass.

I assume you looking to try and get the improved cartridge SAAMI registered, in which case having a design that works with all commercially available brass will improve it's acceptance.
That is of course, your intention being commercial.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:15 pm

Im not concerned with SAAMI.

This current design works with the Lapua brass with no problems.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:23 pm

Yeah ok Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:40 pm

I designed this with 'match' type shooting in mind.  Not so much Mil service, or machine gun use.

Im sure other folks might want to modify the design a bit. That would be kewl. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:49 pm

I think the design is great, I was thinking if you fancied doing a mk2.

I'm looking at doing a similar improved 7.62x54r, but also a 7x54r, 6.5x54r, 6x54r, and .220x54r
But I am also looking at it from a commercial point of view, as I am a weapons engineer, hoping to start out on my own, once I have finished wading through the French paperwork.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:16 pm

Ya. A 7mm version of this is next. As soon as i get the load data for this current one lined out.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:28 pm

Ok. I see where you're coming from.  This 'improved' design (assuming it all pans out to be worth doing) would most likely not function to well in a semi auto. There is almost no case taper (to help with extraction) and a very steep shoulder (which may prevent proper feeding).

From what I read, that is typical of many 'improved' type cartridges. Tends to only lend themselves to the Boltaction market.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:31 pm

Considering what youre looking at doing, f you dont have it, I highly recommend this book. Its outstanding. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:36 pm

Thanks for the link.

I have lots of ideas, but time is not readily available at the moment, I'm in my 2nd year over, and the place is not quite sorted out yet.

Also getting used to the wood burning cooker, is proving hard to keep up with it. 
Spent the last three days cutting and splitting wood, and I still don't have enough for the winter.
I've got another 10 ton to bring down, and split.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:47 pm

Thats what I try to tell people around here who always try to get me to burn wood.

I dont have time to go chopping wood!! lol
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:48 am

Well for me it's chop wood or have cold dinner, and when it snows, it means no heating.
So not much choice really.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:27 pm

What barrel length have you been shooting from?
Just thinking about Scout rifle barrels.
As my second Mosin I'm thinking about building a scout rifle.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:28 pm

Factory 91/30 barrel. This is still in the testing stage. So dont want to go to the trouble of building something yet.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:31 am

It would be interesting to see how it performs in an M44 or the likes.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:24 am

Back up thread a ways, you mentioned that the Lapua 7.62x53R brass is shorter than, say, Prvi Partizan 7.62x54R.  Have you measured to confirm this?  The way I read it, the only difference between the x54R and x53R is that the latter is marked for Finnish rifles with .308 groove diameter, as an aid to avoid loading them with .312 bullet ammunition that could cause pressure excursions if fired in the smaller bore -- that is to say, the cases are identical except for headstamp.

I don't have both kinds of reloadable brass on hand to verify; I've got a hundred rounds of new, never loaded Lapua x53R, but the only x54R I have is steel case surplus and Brown Bear -- it's hard to measure case length accurately on a loaded round, and of course the fired cases might have stretched a little if my chamber is a bit long (I suspect it is, given the fired cases will barely chamber while the surplus ammo goes in without effort).
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:12 pm

I think you are right Zeiss. The Lapua come shorter than the Winchesters I have laying around. And my max trim length that I go by, (that ive mentally latched on to somewhere down the line) is 2.10. 

However, upon closer inspection, it appears I have been trimming with a chipped pin on my Lee case trimmer. (If I can get the camera to focus small enough i'll post a pic  Embarassed  ), That would explain why mine was trimming down to 2.045.  My mistake there. I will edit my post so no one gets any bad info. Good catch as usual.

I do not know what our Finnish brethren had trimmed their Lapua brass to. That would be interesting to know.


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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:53 pm

Boy, this is a whole can of worms.
So, apparently the Finns did make their 53r ammo shorter..... back in the day. However, current producers (including LAPUA) make it all the same, based on the same standard.

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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:09 pm

Well, this's a tad embarrassing. I bought a lot of tools and reloading stuff from a gunsmiths estate a while back. Been using a 54r trimmer that I got from it. Should have checked it out more thoroughly. A chipped pin resulted in me trimming my cases farther than I needed. Luckly, I havent reloaded but maybe 50rds and hadnt started trimming until doing the 'improved' rounds.  Embarassed


At anyrate, if anyones interested in an update. The Mosin im shooting this new case in is in pretty bad shape. Rusty bore (snags the patches) and easily .314.   After some thinking about it, I need to really do all this testing with a proper .311 bore.

I do have a Mosin with an outstanding bore. I honestly think its had maybe 200rds put through it in its life! Its that good and tight. But last thing I want to do is cut up an actual good and tight Mosin.

So I just happen to have a new .311 barrel blank laying around. I think im going to machine it up and chamber it, and that will be the new test subject......
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:10 pm

You'll get a better take on the accuracy the round is capable of in a good bore.  I don't know that you need to go all the way down to .311, though; you can probably buy a complete 91/30 with a decent bore for less than that new .311 groove barrel cost...

Edit:  I see the shorter case on those old Finn rounds; I've never heard of a problem chambering standard length x54R cases in the Finn chambers, though; bullet diameter is the critical difference (though I doubt a .311 bullet in a .308 bore would cause a gun blowup; you'd probably exceed SAAMI pressure by 10-15%, like a proof load).
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:38 pm

The latest trip to the range. 
.311 174gr Sierra Matchking
IMR4350
56gr = 2704fps
57gr=2766
58gr=2776
59gr=2782
60gr=2810
61gr=2860
--------------------------------
Accurate Arms 4350
58gr=2650
59gr=2700
60gr=2742
Using shot out .314 91/30
I wish I could get some brass that was 2.10+". The longest piece out of all these was 2.070 (factory untrimmed PPU)
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:30 am

Just a thought on bullets, there's a South African company who make solids in .311, they'll also make custom bullet if you ask them.

Here's the link to their FAQ page on making custom bullets. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqcustom.html

They have a US manufacturing base too, here's the link to them http://www.gscustomusa.com/

You might be able to get some bullets made up to you exact specs, a bullet made for the barrel your shooting will always perform better.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:12 am

Ya. Im familiar with them. Theres a facebook group called 'More .311 bullets' that mentions them alot.

Ive got a .311 barrel on the way. That should remedy the situation. Smile


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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:10 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:55 pm

Got the new barrel on and got to fire form some brass real quick after cutting some fire wood.
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:44 pm

Some more range time.

A bit chilly today. But got some more data, to try to compare to Ricks.
First shot was a factory PPU 150gr round.
54r Improved case, PPU brass,  3rd time firing. (.311)150gr Sierra Pro Hunter. IMR4350. Winchester Magnum Primer. Case length 2.08".
O.A. Length with Hornady .308 comparator 2.327"
Sizing button 0.3100"
17*F (feels like 6)
0. PPU control round 2830fps
1. 54gr 2585fps
2. 54gr 2592
3. 54gr 2593
4. 55gr 2629
5 55gr 2654
6. 55gr 2649
7. 56gr 2718
8. 56gr 2729
9. 56gr 2708
10. 57gr 2770
11. 57gr 2771
12. 57gr 2793
13. 58gr 2832
14. 58gr 2817
15. 58gr 2804
16. 59gr 2884
17. 59gr 2922
18. 59gr 2905
19. 60gr 2988
20. 60gr 2985
21. 60gr 2966
22. 60gr 3045
The 58gr brass lengthened about 0.002"
The 59gr brass lengthened about 0.006"
The 60gr brass lengthened about 0.009"
No high pressure signs
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:35 am

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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:24 pm

That is awesome Silver!!! I cannot wait to finish my current build!! I hope to make it a 7.62X54R Improved... If not there is always the next build Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:26 pm

Do you have a local smith thats willing to cut the chamber (provided you get a reamer)?
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:27 pm

Yes I do.... that was what was holding me up, but all inline now... have him doing some other work too...
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:20 pm

When rechambering to the improved is there anything else other than reaming it out that needs to be done? and is there different gauges for doing the head spacing after the reaming? The gunsmith is asking. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: 7.62x54r Improved   Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:54 pm

Its all covered on my youtube channel in the Mosin videos.   [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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