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 Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?

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DocSmith



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PostSubject: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:59 pm

Presently I'm in central Minnesota, but in a month I'll have relocated to North Carolina. I'm a retired/disabled Marine with 3 Mosin 91/30s and have commenced modifying one with Archangel stock, AK-74 suppressor, chopped barrel, Timney trigger. Is anyone else out there looking to do such things? I love the original, blow hell out of paper on a regular basis, but want to see what can be done to improve accuracy and reduce recoil.
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Zeiss Ikon



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:16 pm

Stock improvement is probably the first thing you can do to improve felt recoil, followed by reloading with faster powders to reduce pressure at bullet exit (which will also reduce flash and report).  A muzzle brake or suppressor will also help some.

The Archangel stock is a good choice; lowering the barrel line relative to the comb or heel is a very good way to reduce muzzle climb, which translates to reducing the feel of recoil (kicking your head up is perceived as much more severe than pushing your shoulder back).  Getting the length of pull suited to your body and habitual dress is also pretty big; the original stock for the 91/30 is designed for folks who'd commonly be wearing heavy winter clothes made with pre-WWII technology, i.e. wool and lots of it.  Adjust LOP and barrel line correctly, and you can make the exact same action and ammunition feel like half the kick, give or take -- which is, more or less, like trading in your 91/30 for an FN FAL chambered in 7.62 NATO (ballistically very similar round, but a much less punishing rifle even when several pounds lighter).

Reducing felt recoil will almost automatically improve accuracy (along with flinch checking drills), by making it easier to shoot without a flinch.  Beyond that, even with the original stock, it's not hard to improve accuracy by correctly floating the barrel: not a full free float, which doesn't work well with the long, slender barrel original to the 91/30, but a single point support of about an inch length at the end of the forearm combined with shims or bedding under the action.  I did this to mine by adding brass sheet shims a few thousandths thick under the receiver (around both screws), and scraping the barrel channel to give clearance enough to slide a piece of paper back and forth except the last inch of the fore-end, and ensuring the hand guard didn't contact the barrel at all.  Adding a Smith Sights front sight with target post to this, my rifle is capable of about 2 MoA from a rest over the iron sights (original rear, front differing only in elevation adjustment and narrower post top).  And mine is a more or less randomly selected (I was prepared to reject one that didn't look healthy, but found everything okay) run-of-the-importer piece.

It helps that my trigger is pretty clean and not very heavy, as they go; if needed, improving the trigger (polishing the sear and bending the spring to reduce pull and creep) is the third thing (switching to a Timney is the "easy" way to improve the trigger); also, ensuring the bolt operates smoothly helps keep your head in the shots: this depends not only on a good fit, clean bolt, and appropriate lubrication, but having a clean chamber so extraction doesn't require undue effort.  I don't recommend shortening the firing pin spring to reduce trigger pull, as (IMO) this will also increase lock time, which does nothing good for accuracy (taken too far, it might also result in hang fires or misfires if you get ammo with harder than usual primers).
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SilverTip
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:29 pm

Welcome aboard Doc!!!  smile   I apologize for not seeing your thread sooner. I try to keep up on new posts. 

Anyways, in reference to what you are asking..... YES!! You are in the right place. Cant wait to see your work.
Myself and some others have done all those things you mention (except replace suppressor with muzzle break) and then some. And hope to do more.
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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:55 am

Hi There I’m new too I have a 1942 91\30 that I’ve been modifying
So far I’ve cut the barrel down from 28.75” to 22”,
Re-crowned it and threaded it for a muzzle brake
Put on a Timmy Trigger with a ATI scope mount (that I don’t like), ATI Bent Bolt (That I Hate)
Both will be changed soon
Archangel Stock That I love
This thing has become so much fun to shoot between the Muzzle brake and the archangel stock
I can actually shoot steel plates at 365 yards and still watch the bullet hit through the scope it settles back down so well
The stock was a bit part of that  recoil was so much nicer just from the stock and now with the break recoil just a little more than my AR
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:35 pm

In the other thread, you mentioned its a Witt Muzzle Brake. Ive been very interested in how they perform. Good to hear you like it.

Very good info and explanation on the recoil. shweet  I appreciate the small details like being able to see the impact, instead of recovering from the recoil.

How did you recrown the barrel?

What did you think of the Timney Trigger?

What loads are you shooting?

What Scope are you using?

Fyi, you can trim up the base of the ATI bolt handle (the part where the screw hole is) and weld that handle to the mosin bolt body. Works really well.
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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:38 pm

As far as crowning I watched a bunch of videos about it and finally settled with this

Once I marked the barrel where I wanted to cut it and stuffed some foam ear plugs down the bore. I cut it with a hack saw, I took my time but it still didn’t come out real square so then I used a cleaning rod and wrapped it with masking tape near one end I made it thick enough to fill the bore snugly then I did it again about 4 inches towards the middle so once I stuffed it in the bore the cleaning rod stayed centered. It also pushed the ear plug deeper to keep metal shavings out

Then I got a couple blocks of wood drilled a strait center hole in both same diameter as the cleaning rod Then drilled out the other end of the block for a ¼’-20 bolt cut the head off it and chucked it in my hand drill. Then used a protractor and sanded about 11 degree bevel on one of the wood blocks. Spinning it in the drill

Starting with the square one first I slid it over the cleaning rod with some grease on it using it as a guide I used the drill as kind of a lathe I kept swapping out sandpaper until the end of the barrel was flat and clean this went easier then I figured it would.

After it was flat and smooth I switched to the 11 degree one to get an 11 degree inside bevel on the bore apparently 11 degree is considered a target crown only did a little of this maybe 1\8” deep

Wanted just enough to direct the gasses as they come out of the bore. Lastly I re-blued all the raw metal.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:26 pm

I don't remember what I had the Timmy trigger set too when I bought it I'll have to look it up but its nice and smooth and not too light
the muzzle brake they claimed 60% recoil reduction I'd tend to believe it between the Promag stock and the brake it shoots so tame now its fun to shoot
as far as loads I'm just getting to reloading so I'm just learning with that I do have some questions I was going to post to the reloading section
scope is just a cheap NcStar Rangefinder 6-24 zoom its good for now but I can see the day when I get a better one just not yet
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:47 pm

GEEZ! Thats some ingenuity right there! shweet You are definitely in the right place.
So, just to satisfy the naysayers, what are your typical groups? Do you think this has improved, made worse, or maintained this Mosins performance?
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:08 pm

my best group @ 100 yards was 1 3/4" with Mill Spec ammo I believe its 147g
like I said I'm just getting into reloading mainly to try to get it better got a bunch of .308's loaded  (not easy to find good .311's) for now want to test them this weekend proly depends how hot its going to be
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:12 pm

Let me know how the .308's shoot. Most Mosins (with .311+ bores) dont improve with .308 projectiles from what ive heard. 

What powder you got in them?

What dia does your bore slug out to?

Heres a few.
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Im amazed how dry the market is on .311 right now. I'd gettem while you can now. Midway says out of stock/no reorder on Sierra MK .311!
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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:58 pm

my bore slugs at .314 and once I saw that, it made me look into loading my own, its hard to find good .311's,  I did find some I got a bag of Privi Partizan 303 Cal .311 150g FMJBT but they mic out at 1.14 long I pulled a Mill Spec 147g 308 bullet it mics at 1.37 this Privi round is really short I can seat it in brass but its only holding on by about 1/16" I'm not really comfortable with that. I also got another box of Barnes TSX 303 .311 these mic at 1.2 but its a flat base vs the boat tail so it seats a lot better but still not that deep.

I'm looking for some 180g BT but there almost impossible to find right now, I got on a list to be notified for sierra MatchKings 303 174g HPBT hope these are better. But for this weekend I just got .308 Speers 180g BTSP 2052

last trip to the desert they tested @ 2167avg with 42.5g IMR4064 which I felt was kind of slow but it was a starting load according to IMR's load data website so I now have the remaining 70 rounds loaded in half grain steps going to ladder them up to 45.9 which IMR says is max load. see how they group and check speeds. maybe I can find a load my mosin likes.
hell if it shoots these good then I might have two loads I like, but I'm not holding my breath.


I'm just wondering though, the 308's don't fall through the barrel, so they are making contact and being spun but do they slop around in the bore? or am I losing pressure because of a too small bullet?
maybe a little of both, not sure. once I find some matchkings I'm going to buy a lot lol
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Zeiss Ikon



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:54 pm

Of course your .308 bullets aren't going to fall through the bore; if you measure between the high spots on your bore slug (this will probably require a caliper rather than micrometer) you'll probably find the "bore" to be around .300 to .301 (this is a common figure) even though the groove diameter (what you got as maximum size of your slug) might run .313 (mine slugs to .300/.313).  Anything bigger than .301, then, will engage the rifling to some extent, but the gas cutting (due to propellant gas passing the bullet in the unocccupied grooves) and possible stripping of the bullet by the partly engaged lands do nothing good for accuracy.

Even a .311 bullet is a little small, though a jacketed bullet that size usually works acceptably in a .313 groove barrel.  The way I read it, the rule of thumb is to use a jacketed bullet same size as your grooves, or a cast slug .001 larger.  This is critically important with cast bullets; gas cutting on a cast bullet that doesn't fill the grooves will not only kill accuracy, it'll also leave lead in the bore (melted from the bullet by the powder gas), which makes things worse as it builds up (and is a PITA to clean out).

From what I've read (haven't had a chance to try it yet) the very best accuracy you can get, also supportive of full power loading, is paper patched cast bullets in a bore carefully cleaned of all jacket copper fouling.  The general rule is to cast the core to .001 or .0015 over bore size (so .3015 for a .300 bore like mine), then wrap with wet paper that will shrink to the thickness to give a final diameter of .001 over groove; in my Mosin, that would take .0035 thick paper (about like common notebook or laser printer paper) for a two-layer wrap.  Lube the paper after wrapping, and load using the lowest starting load for a jacketed bullet the same weight and profile, in a case that's fired in the same chamber and neck-only sized as little as will give adequate neck tension (flare a little to avoid tearing the patch and just barely take off the flare with a crimp die; some shooters like to size things so the case needs no sizing at all; this makes the cases last almost forever).  The result (with appropriate powder selection and load development) can be a load that shoots at jacketed velocity, but at lower pressure, and with accuracy equal to the best of either jacketed or cast.  As a plus, the patches will polish the bore, leading to accuracy improvement over time as you continue to shoot paper patch.

The down side of this is it often requires a custom made mold to cast the correct size core (I'd have to get a 7.35 mm mold to get .301 cores for my Mosin) which will cost $80 to $120+ up front, or two-stage sizing to reduce a bullet that drops at .309 to .301 and keep it concentric; it also often requires slower powders than would normally be used in the round being loaded (rounds in our size range often wind up shooting best with .50 BMG powders, for instance); also, the process of casting, sizing, patching, drying, lubing, and (optionally) resizing the patched bullets is time consuming -- but not much if any worse than sorting brass by weight, turning necks, trimming length to .001, weighing charges, reaming primer pockets, i.e. all the stuff accuracy fanatics commonly do anyway trying for that last 1/16" group reduction.
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone out there Modifying 91/30s?   Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:23 am

I'm posting Stock build if your interested [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lot's of pictures Wink
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