Welcome to Mosinitus. The Mosin Nagant Builders Forum
Welcome to Mosinitus. The Mosin Nagant Builders Forum

This forum is geared toward the 54r shooter who constantly strives for more accuracy. You will never be chastised or banned for your opinions. Whether you like to collect, or modify these rifles, the path is yours.
 
HomeHome  MemberlistMemberlist  UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  Make a Donation to Mosinitus hereMake a Donation to Mosinitus here  

Share | 
 

 getting close to understanding ...i think

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:39 pm

ok I been searching high and low for some official load data for my 174g Sierra Match Kings using IMR4350
it seems there's not really any official info but a lot of people talk about it 
and from the other thread on Improved 54r I think this is starting to make some sense

ok last week looking at my rounds after shooting 47.5g of IMR4350 I had some soot on the outside of the necks of my brass
silvertip you said this means "your rifle wants a little more charge for that round"
that got me to thinking if 47.5 is really too light what would be the Max
I'm going to ladder some rounds for my next test session
but where do I stop.? so I've been looking trying to figure out what to ladder too

and now yesterday when I resized my cases this all started to click
I haven't got my neck sizer yet so I was doing to full length resizing and I noticed how easily they sized this time compared to last time
I did anneal them this time but last time I sized them they were a lot harder to run threw my dies so I'm thinking this means the 47.5g
was a relatively light load because it didn't form the cases as much as it did last time which confirms what Silvertip said

so now just reading the other thread
"7.62x54r Improved - Load data 1"
Lapua brass 54r improved 3rd time firing,
IMR4350 174grain Sierra Matchking
1. 51grn 2324
2. 52grn 2322
3. 53grn 2427
4. 53grn 2413
5. 54grn 2521
6. 54grn 2581
7. 54grn 2600
8. 55grn 2645
9. 55grn 2644
10 56grn 2712
11 56grn 2717
no high pressure signs


would it be safe to use this load data as a starting point or a guideline for mine
I'm reading up in my hornady 9th edition book trying to understand what to look for
as far as "high Pressure signs" but I really don't have any experience with this
and this is a little serious to have a misunderstanding about it all

my MV avg for the day last weekend was 2127fps for the day that was over about 70 rounds
that speed only keeps me in the transonic zone out to 800 yards @ 100 degrees
so I'd like to get my MV up to keep transonic out to 1200 or 1300 yards I'm not reaching for the sky here
I just want to find the fastest accurate load I can
I'm thinking too about loading some rounds with my other powder too
I can find load data for it IMR4064
I was shooting a 180g Speer .308 with that and maxed out at 45.9g with a MV of 2451

also when I ran some of the 147G Mill Surp ammo I have they were coming out at 2730 fps
which is faster then any of the rounds I loaded so far

there's still a lot about this I just don't understand and I want to be careful as I can be
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:45 am

ahh I found some load data
I found this Lyman Load Data pamphlet I had bought back when I first started thinking of reloading
had lost it in the mean time found it this morning
the bullet shape is different but the weight is right on
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 

it says starting load of IMR4350 47.5g @2196 I was at 2127
and it says max load is 52.5 @2515 if I can get that speed id have data out to 1000 yards
and I feel comfortable using that load as my max

but is it true that I can exceed that if I pay close attention to pressure signs on my brass.?
I have been researching it and I have a better idea of what to look for
still a bit nervous about it but I feel I'm starting understand
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:24 pm

Excellent questions and concerns. shweet

To address the first questions "would it be safe to use this (54r Improved) load data as a starting point or a guideline for mine"

As you have probably already figured out, thats a big NO on that one!
Just speaking technically though. Its a standard procedure issue more than anything. And you know how it goes when you deviate from standard procedure. You either blaze new trails when no one else said it couldnt be done. Or........ you lose a hand. idk

When I loaded that Imr4350/174gr SMK load, I started at 45gr, and topped out at 52 I believe (no pressure signs).
The 47.5gr were my most accurate round, while working my brass the least. So I liked that. But 52gr was also very accurate for me. But only doing 100yd grouping at that time, just didnt want to burn up the extra powder.

Yes. Basically pressure signs will dictate how high you can go. My quess is case capacity, or your shoulder will limit you first. Wink

You are just fine with that Lyman load data. If that is the full Lyman load manual, read the front of it. There is alot of great info in there on 'pressure signs' and every other aspect of reloading.

Make sure also that your loaded round is not touching the rifling before firing.

Ive been curious what a guy could do with Varget. Looks promising.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:32 pm

I have ran across data with 180gr Sierra [size=13](2310), 54gr IMR4350, mv2785   zoinks

Also, what does your bore slug to?
[/size]
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:41 pm

my bore slugs at .301/.314 and the Lyman data is from pamphlet I had bought when I first started
thinking about trying to reload then I had lost it just found it this morning and got lucky it had data

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
there's nothing about pressures in it but I have been reading my hornady 9th edition manual but its only got cartoon pictures not real pictures
I also found some videos one by this guy ammosmith
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I'm sure there's a lot more I can find on this and I'll be searching it out before I go out again
he talks about the primers getting pushed back and actually flowing back and flattening out that's scary looking
he also shows how to check cases for head separation been looking at my brass and they look to be in good shape

mainly what I was looking for was some kinda guideline or spread that I can ladder to
you went pretty high with your loads but then you know what your looking for in a pressure sign
I was scared cause I didn't know what to look for

I feel better now but still not sure I'll try anything that high maybe one day but not yet

I do like the idea of trying different powders and Varget seems to be really popular
I have 4064 so I'm going to try some of that too I haven't tried that with the Sierra MK's
but I have used it on Speer SPBT 180g .308's they shot nice but that was when my scope loosened up so I have
no idea how accurate they were

one thing that's still got me confused though when I shot the Mill Surp ammo I got
I got MV's of 2730 for 147g FMJBT that's a lot faster then anything I have loaded myself
when I pulled one I got 48.5g of powder out but no idea what powder
I know speed and pressure are totally different but wouldn't it be a sign that I really haven't  pushed any limits with my loads
just the fact that my speeds are on the low side? its got to be more complicated then pressure=speed although I'm sure there related

you know though this is the kinda shit that keeps me interested I find this all more fascinating then I ever thought I would
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:54 pm

Ya, you are correct. You werent pushing any limits. Thats what the powder fouling down the case body generally means. Not enough case pressure to seal the brass to the chamber while the gas's exit the muzzle. 

If you can buy the Lyman manual and read the front section (plenty of pic in it) you will feel alot better. When I told my mentor I wanted to start loading. He didnt hesitate. He said get the Lyman manual and read the front section twice.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:16 pm

will do thanks for all your help you have no idea how much I've learned here
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:24 pm

ok went to range this morning to try out the new scope love it
need to move it back a little found myself reaching for it a little
and once I found where it was hitting got it zeroed close

I used the 174g Sierra MK with 52.5g IMR4350 which is the max load according to my Lyman info

they also stated this was recommended as possible most accurate load too
but not for me once I got a decent zero shot about 3" groups @ 100yards
didn't ladder or anything basically just wanted to try out the new scope
so loaded up 30 rounds at the max load

I think I also did see signs of excessive pressure not much but it was there
didn't hurt the cases but did push the primers back flat with the bolt

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

it doesn't look like the primer deformed just pushed back and stopped flattening out on the bolt
I think I was just on the edge of being too much

I was impressed though that I understood what was happening with them
I feel a lot more confident in my ability to do this reloading stuff

shot 30 rounds with avg MV 2489.5 fps the Lyman book says with this load I should be 2515
I was flirting with it 1 round was over the highest MV was 2545 and a few 2513

next time I'm going to try my other powder IMR4064 and also I am going to get some varget
I want to try that one
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:52 pm

pale  You loaded straight to max!?  lol Well, if so, thats some testicular fortitude. I was taught to always work up from the low end. You never know when you over look a variable.  But im glad it worked out. shweet

That is an outstanding picture of what they call 'primer pucker'. Infact, may I pass that around as a learning aid? I'll stick your name on it.

What you are seeing there (and always get a second opinion on these things) is that pucker or 'protrusion ring' of primer is flowing backwards into the firing pin hole (around the firing pin).  If you remove your bolt, and uncock it, you can see how much bigger your firing pin hole is in relation to the firing pin.

This is SUPER common for this rifle/cartridge combo. The danger is shooting hot enough loads that the pucker blows out, and gas goes back inside the bolt. It basically fries the firing pin spring instantly, rendering it dead, (and could possibly spray the face of the operator as well).


The fix for that is, to simply drill it out bigger, and press in a bushing with an id smaller than stock.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:25 pm

oh my bad I figured if the book said max load that meant max safe load I wouldn't go higher then that

sure use the picture all you want

I didn't know what the pucker ring meant I thought maybe as the primer pushed out the stretched metal
collapsed on itself
none of them had any breaks I looked at every round as I shot them
all pushed the primer back about the same they were pretty consistent

how do I get a bushing ? or would a new firing pin solve this.?
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:45 pm

You're right.  Seems like thats how it should be. But no two guns are machined exactly alike. Throat depth especially can vary. Plus, specifically with the mosin nagant, you gotta watch your loading manuals. IIRC ive seen some manuals test with .308 and .310 bullets aswell. Theres just too many factors at play, to risk it. So the common practice is to start at the 'starting load' and work up from there in safe increments. Most people go up in 0.5gr and 1gr increments.
(I think some books say 'suggested starting grains'.)


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:42 pm

you know looking at my bolt the firing pin doesn't look too small

when I get a chance I got to dig out my calipers it may be that I don't have the firing pin
adjusted out enough so its only making a light hit the end of the pin is round and if it
doesn't come out far enough  the full radius doesn't fill the hole 
looks like I got some more stuff to look in to
dam I love this stuff lol
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:06 pm

Thats a good point about the full radius not filling the hole. But looking at your picture, i'd say you are set just right.

There is a maximum amount of firing pin protrusion you dont want to exceed. There is a tool for checking that usually comes with a mosin when you buy it from a dealer. Obviously, to much protrusion will pierce the primer, so be careful.

I will try to dig up some exact numbers tomorrow.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:19 am

yes I have the tool and I've been very careful of setting it too deep
I believe the number are .075 to .090 and you need to be in that range

my depth is .077 so I'm in the range but just barely


I'll take the bolt apart in the morning and mic the diameter of the hole and the firing pin itself
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:52 am

ok took apart the bolt and mic'ed the fireing pin at .191
and using the thin part of my calipers I get .192 for the hole diameter
its a small hole and even though the caliper is almost sharp
I'm thinking I'm still not getting it perfect so I'd throw in a half thousand for error
that would make my hole  .0015 bigger than the firing pin

took some pictures of both
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
the firing pin is pretty round on the end but the hole in the bolt is a bit round too
maybe that's where my problem is
if you zoom in on the bolt hole you can see its got a lot of wear there

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

found some old mill surp cases I saved to make dummy rounds from and they also have this pucker
so my guns shot this way from the start I just never knew it was a problem until now

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

so then this is a good reason to stay away from hot loads but is this something I should be worried about.?
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:57 pm

Its not necessarily a problem. Its just an indicator to keep an eye on (very common). And I think I see the problem. If your measurement of your firing pin hole is correct, that should be a good enough fitment.
The problem would be the bevel at the surface of that hole. If you look at your last two pictures above, that pucker on the primer probably fits that firing pin hole chamfer.

I just checked my setup. My pin is .0915. My hole is .095 with no chamfer. imo, thats too big, and I will be bushing mine. 

Great pictures as usual! shweet
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:47 pm

shweet
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:02 pm

you know I bought a bag of 100 of these Prvi Partizan 303 Cal .311 150g FMJBT when I first started reloading
I loaded up a few once but they are so short in length that once in the cases with a OCL @ 2.95"
there's like 1/16" that the case actually contacts the bullet they are boat tail so there barely held in place
really freaked me out and I've been scared to use them

how short is too short ?

they will load and they will stay put but it doesn't take much to knock them out
I've really only used them as dummy rounds and I have had them fall out even with a crimp on them
they look so nice I'd like to use them but I'm scared to
shiny little copper darlings such a waist lol
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:28 pm

I wouldnt be afraid of it. It would probably be just the opposite. So little neck tension that the velocity will be sub par.
Feeding can also be a pain, knocking the bullets crooked...etc

I dont think there is a too short, except concerning accuracy.

I have some factory PPU 150gr ammo. Its COL is 2.835.

Why not seat them deeper?  Lemme look up some info and be back.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:41 pm

Vihtaviouri has this load data for 150gr Lapua bullets. Case trim-to length 53.30 mm (2.098") Bullet Wt.
(gr) 150

Powder
Type N133

Charge
(gr) 43.6

Muzzle
Vel. (fps)
2709

Overall
Length (in)2.791


[th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th]
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:21 am

I was trying to keep them the full length to be accurate but your right I guess it wont hurt anything to
seat them a little deeper or maybe ill just keep these to make up dummy rounds

it just didn't seem right so figured I'd throw that question out there
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:49 pm

woke up to a email from a local reloading supplier "extreme ventures"
they said they had 4 bottles of Varget powder in stock (now they only have 2)

loaded up almost all my other powders the other night IMR4064 and IMR4350
laddering a full spread of 174g Sierra Match Kings  .311 of each
and now going to use my remaining cases to ladder a full spread of Varget too
I'm going to find my most accurate load of each and see if I can settle on something
wont get to go out till next weekend I think but I'm hoping to find something my gun likes
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:58 am

ok need a little advice here sat down to de-prime my cases and do a full length resize 
and so far I ripped 2 necks off

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I did anneal these cases last time around so I'm wondering
if I got them too hot and now the metal is too soft

I've gone through the rest with a little mini mag light
I unscrewed the cap so the bulb is exposed then slide it up inside the case
looking for light seeping out to show any cracks haven't found any

never ripped a neck off before and now did 2 out of the first 10 rounds I tried to resize

going to have to order some new brass not feeling very safe with these anymore
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:52 am

scratch  Im not sure on that. Never ran into that. Gonna have to seek out an old seasoned pro on this one.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:02 am

only thing I did differently this time was to anneal them
and was my first try at that
going to look into that to see if I screwed that up

haven't tossed them yet but I'm not using them again until I know why this happened

going to order some new brass

and got to get that neck sizer too
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:51 pm

It I could see the annealing colors, that might tell. My guess is ya, too much heat.
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:32 pm

don't have any pix from then but I do remember wondering if I got them too hot
if I did it was just barely

ordered the neck sizer ill see how many I trash with that
still don't think i'll use them again ordered a bag of PUU brass this morning
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:19 pm

Did you use lube?
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:10 pm

yep sprayed them down all 4 sides with one shot
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:24 pm

"I bet that's it well I got some practice rounds now
I'm going to try annealing them again and see if I can get them to turn blue
still not going to use them but I want to know how to get it right"

thumb
Back to top Go down
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:11 am

well got my neck sizer and my new brass
went through and full sided all my old brass no more torn necks
but still not going to use them

did some reading about annealing and it seems I did get them too hot
and from what I read being that I only annealed the necks  there probably ok to use but
I'm not going to try

now I have a question though being that I have all new brass how do I keep track of them
as I use them is there a way to mark how many times I've reloaded them.?

if I load 100 and only use 30 or 40 how do I know which ones have been loaded 1 time vs twice
how do other people do this?
maybe only load batches and make sure I shoot all before I load them again.?
not sure how to keep track I need a way to mark them that doesn't come off when I clean them

how do you guys do it?
Back to top Go down
SilverTip
Admin
avatar

Posts : 566
Karma : 18
Join date : 2011-10-29
Age : 102

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:01 am

I just keep my batches all together. If I load thirty, I shoot thirty. If I fail to shoot all thirty, I keep them all together anyways. And shoot the remainders later.

I use what I call batch boxes.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
http://mosinitus.americantalk.net
LVJake7761

avatar

Posts : 149
Karma : 6
Join date : 2014-08-27
Location : Las Vegas, NV

PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:49 am

yes I like that idea
I am thinking I'll get more brass so I can always have like 50 loaded in a box the empties
ill keep in there boxes too then I can mark the box as too how many times they've been loaded
when I get new brass they will become part of a box and stay with that box

that seems to make the most sense I already have 4 50 round boxes just got to order another 100 cases
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: getting close to understanding ...i think   

Back to top Go down
 
getting close to understanding ...i think
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Heavy Close Combat weapons
» please also close the thread
» Regarding special models in close combat...
» Close combat weapons.
» Understanding the Marshall Attack (2010)

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Welcome to Mosinitus. The Mosin Nagant Builders Forum :: All about 54r Reloading Ammo!-
Jump to: