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 Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?

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UncleJaque

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PostSubject: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:55 am

I had read from time to time reports about how the Mosin Nagant rifle was designed to be fired with a fixed bayonet, and that there was something about the barrel harmonics which caused their accuracy to deteriorate when the bayonet was detached.

There were some, of course, who disputed this theory, so I decided to do some experimentation and find out for myself if there was anything to it.

At first I fired groups with and without the folding bayonet extended on a couple of M-44 carbines in July of 2007. The differences in both group size and point of impact was obvious and surprisingly significant.

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Notice how extending the bayonet pulled the groups to the right and down a bit, as well as reducing the group size by about half!

This effect was also observed on the M-91/30 using the socket bayonet:

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All other factors such as ammunition, shooting position and range conditions were identical.

In this case the fixed bayonet brought the point of impact over to the left, while also reducing group size. The bore on this "U-Fix-Em" special which I got on my C&R FFL for about $37 is pretty rough, and I'm contemplating trying to replace it with a better one.

If you haven't grouped your "Balkan Flamethrower" with the pig-sticker fixed, give it a try and see if you notice a difference as well. You might get a few odd looks on the range, but they'll get over it.

Just remember if you're using corrosive ammo to clean the blade of the bayonet, unless you want it to get all rusty on you. Rusty bayonets are considered to be poor form, you know...

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SilverTip
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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:20 am

Holy cow UncleJaque! That is awesome!! I was just explaining this (I
think incorrectly) to a young lad here a while back. His was shooting a
tad off. And he was disappointed. When I told him to put his bayo on,
you should have seen the look on his (and his dads) face. lol And it
worked!
I said it had to do with how the gas's escaped and
interacted with the bayo when sighted in (like a crown effects accuracy). But now im thinking its
actually just like a stabilizer on a compound bow. Barrel harmonics and
such. ?

Well done UncleJaque and thanks for taking the time to write that up!
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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:39 pm

I saw a video the other day not sure if its ok to post links here
apparently I'm too new to post links look for a you tube video "Understanding Eye Box, and More, with Leupold"
    
in the first like 10 seconds there's an AR going off in slow motion look at how that gun vibrates its like a noodle for a split second.


I've been watching videos by this Guy Rex, look at you tube for Sniper 101 he's got a ton of them. one of them he goes into detail about harmonics, I don't remember what number it was

he explains it like, the gun vibrates, you can affect that vibration, and how you affect it may or may not settle down the muzzle, but that's what you want to happen, by putting the bayonet on your making a anti node which is sort of the piviot point of that vibration the closer you can get the antinode to the muzzle the better. 
makes sense to me but I never knew how much we were talking about, until I saw that video,
the distance that gun vibrates multiplied by 100 yards or more I can't believe I ever hit anything.

the weight of that bayonet hanging off the end, I bet settles it down nicely
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SilverTip
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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:32 pm

Ive not seen that Leupold vid. Sounds interesting.

Im familiar with Rex's channel. Im still trying to find out where he got his 'Sniper List' he displays I think it was in video 17 or 21 of the Sniper 101 series.




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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:47 pm

yes that's Rex my hero
can't wait to get home to watch that other video (at work now)
what "Sniper List" does he have.?
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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:45 pm

wow that was interesting
I know the archangel stock comes with a barrel tensioner took me about an hour to figure out how to install it no idea how to adjust it other than like he did start someplace and move it then see if it gets better
I wonder if there's a system for adjusting these things
took mine out for now my barrel is free floated for starters

I think part of load testing has a lot to do with this also
what your really doing is looking for a load that vibrates in tune with your barrel
get that antinode where it works for you not against you
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Zeiss Ikon



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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:34 pm

Can't say I've tried it, but the "common wisdom" seems to be that a full length 91/30 barrel is too flexible to shoot well with a full float; it does better with a single support band around an inch long approximately where the tip of the original fore-end lands.  From my own experience, with a shimmed action and barrel channel scraped to float except that last inch of the fore-end, I'm getting about 2 MoA with the iron sights off a rest (that's 1" at 50 yards; I don't know that my vision would let me shoot that well at 100 with irons).

As I recall, Jake, you've shortened your barrel; it might well be stiff enough to shoot well with a full float at 22".

There surely is a system for this, but it requires the right software and a supercomputer or a bunch of modeling time on a desktop machine.  The "lug" you see about 60% along the barrel on an M1A2 Abrams tank is a barrel tuning mass; it gives the barrel enough inherent accuracy to live up to the aiming precision the computer targeting and gyro/accelerometer stabilization promise.  I've read that before they tuned those barrels, the inaccuracy of the main gun almost killed the entire Abrams project -- after adding the tuning mass, they started outshooting the claims of the stabilizer and targeting system manufacturer, to become one of the most accurate tank guns ever built.
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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:37 pm

Zeiss Ikon wrote:

 The "lug" you see about 60% along the barrel on an M1A2 Abrams tank is a barrel tuning mass; it gives the barrel enough inherent accuracy to live up to the aiming precision the computer targeting and gyro/accelerometer stabilization promise. I've read that before they tuned those barrels, the inaccuracy of the main gun almost killed the entire Abrams project -- after adding the tuning mass, they started outshooting the claims of the stabilizer and targeting system manufacturer, to become one of the most accurate tank guns ever built.
popcorn
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LVJake7761

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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:57 pm

I didn't feel comfortable going less then 22 I figure I can tune from here
if I need to I'll use the barrel tensioner but free floated right now
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Zeiss Ikon



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PostSubject: Re: Do Bayonets Effect M-N Accuracy?   Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:24 pm

Well, as noted, mine shoots better than the sights at full length with a single-point support.  I need to get back to my scope mount project so I can see how much better the rifle does than I can aim it...
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