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 Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock

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SilverTip
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PostSubject: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:04 am

This was my first attempt. So this thread wont really have alot of instruction. Just pics and  description of the process.
I will document the next build fully and post it on this site with how-to's etc.

The first thing I should say is, if you want to do this, it is
completely doable, and I learned a few short cuts for future reference
(I will list them)

(In reference to the UK59 machine gun barrel) I THINK (but am not positive) that regardless of the extractor groove
size (length), and case rim seating area (which is small) on one of
these stock barrels, you really dont need to modify anything on the chamber face to get her
shooting. But heres one of the tricks to make it easier. Have several
mosin receivers to screw onto your new barrel to check for extractor
indexing and head spacing.
If you are concerned with cosmetics, as I
was, there is another thing to factor into the indexing. There is a
large groove machined into the 'bottom' of this barrel just ahead of the
chamber area.

Heres how it went for me. First, build a wrench just
to get the stock mosin barrels off. Second, nearly kill yourself failing
to get the barrel off. Third, weld on a 4ft breaker bar to the wrench
for more leverage, cause that bitch didnt budge. Fourth, heat up the
receiver threads with a torch to help. Crush the shit out of the barrel
just to keep it from turning in the vice. And..... BAM! Finally it comes
off. With care, the torch is the trick. I swear they put those barrels
on at 600ft/lbs!!
For future jobs, I made a socket that slips over
the receiver to make this a bit more enjoyable. Now I just have to find
an impact with enough balls.

I have 3 mosins, and 1 mosin cut
receiver (great for lots of stuff). The first mosin receiver headspaced
good, the extractor groove was indexing close enough (would need a
little work) but that slot cut in the barrel ended up at 12oclock. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
 So I tried the other receivers. I ended up on an m44 receiver. It
indexed and headspaced great. That nasty groove indexed at 7oclock. So
its hidden down in the stock.
Funny thing, that cut receiver actually indexed and headspaced the best out of all of them.  [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Since
this ammo headspaces off the rim of the case, we decided to add more
area around the face of the chamber for the round to seat against. (this
is the extra work that I dont think you really need if you just want a
shooter). So we tig welded up half of the existing extractor groove that
would not be used by the mosin. Then turned that weld down to add more
chamber face for the round to seat against.

Then a little dremel work to clean it up and get my extractor groove working properly and the chamber face is done.
Only thing I did after that was turn the barrel down a bit. They are obviously a bit beefy!  

This part is a must to get the barrel to torque properly...... in the pics you will notice at the
rear most of the barrel, immediately ahead of the receiver, the barrel
is a smaller profile  for about 1.5" or so. I turned a sleeve to slip on to the part of the barrel. This gives you a surface for your receiver to crush against which will allow you to tighten your barrel fully. (see the vid below for a visual) If you cannot get your headspace correct, or proper extractor
indexing, you can simply use this sleeve, that you MUST make, to achieve
your desired final position. Simply make the sleeve longer or shorter. But remember, HEADSPACE is top priority. You can always grind in a new extractor groove, or modify the existing one.  

Also, you will want to crown the barrel. They cut off the muzzle break before they ship it looks like. And its a bit ugly. Its not a must, but considering the REASON for doing such a project, seems like a prerequisite to me.  

Thats
really all that pertains to this barrel. The only other mod I did was
cut the bolt handle off, make a new one, and move it back behind the
stripper clip slot. In hopes that some day the stripper clip mount will
be come a rear mount for good solid scope rail.



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M44 receiver,
Czech UK59 (CZ59) heavy barrel,
Timney trigger,
moved bolt behind stripper slot,
stock from LowelDesigns...
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Last edited by SilverTip on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:14 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:25 am

So two questions.....Where'd you get the barrel and how much was it? And how do you like the Timney trigger?



OK....Maybe that was 3 questions? lol
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:44 am

The barrel [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And the timney was ordered from Timneys sight.

I will have to post a video of the Timney. Cause it is freakin insane! I mean ive never felt a trigger that good on ANY gun.
I chose the 3lb (default) option. Ive tried to measure the trigger movement before break, and I cant. Its that close and tight. Probably a 32nd or even a 64th or something.

A word of caution for the originalists out there. You will have to drill out some extra room inside the stock to allow the Timney room to kick ass and take names.

Its soo worth it, if you buy one Ape, and you dont like it, I will buy it off you no questions asked. One will go in every Mosin I come across.


Last edited by SilverTip on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:49 am

Nice! 80 bucks aint as bad as I thought it might be for a bull barrel!
As for the timney trigger, I've heard nothing but good stuff about them for all types of guns. So I know their reputation says they're good to go. And if I got one for a Mosin I wouldn't worry about the space in the stock since I'd be doing an aftermarket stock to get the most out of the new set up that I could. Much like your set up. Wink

Although I must admit that I like the idea of doing something similar to a PSL. A heavy barrel and better trigger with a higher tech stock to squeeze better groups from one as well as make it capable of shooting heavy ball ammo regularly.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:03 am

Ape wrote:


Although I must admit that I like the idea of doing something similar to a PSL. A heavy barrel and better trigger with a higher tech stock to squeeze better groups from one as well as make it capable of shooting heavy ball ammo regularly.


DO IT!
Crossed my mind also. I dont think I will chart them waters anytime soon. Unless I can get a 'u fixem' from CAI.
Who ever does it soon, will be the first.

I dont know if the Mosin Timney can be retro (or is it retra) fitted to the PSL?
You would also need a gas port I think.
And I dont know where the extractor on the PSL is exactly (2oclock?) or what thread the receiver has. Lets ask Waltham to tare his apart and check.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:00 am

It looks like the basic rifle can be built from parts for less than $200. That includes the receiver, B-barrel, and synthetic stock. The trigger group, bolt, and mag would be extra. If the parts are still available come December, I might (might) just try a build like this. But I don't think I want to tear my current non-collectable apart to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:47 am

You are pretty much correct Randy. But there is 2 parts to be machined. First the barrel profile. To see it in person you would understand. ITS A CHUNK! 7lbs by itself I think it was. And then the receiver collar. It is a must. You will not be able to tighten up the barrel because the lip the receiver is supposed to face (crush) up against is very small. So a collar needs to be made to slip over that and give the receiver something to tighten against. But no worries, just got this fired up last night. (click on the pic)
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I know i dont describe it correctly. But hopefully I will borrow my bros vid cam and show how to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:50 pm

Yup, looking forward to it. I like heavy guns but that much may be a little cumbersome. I like bench shooting the best since I'm a terrible shot offhand. Embarassed I'm pretty sure that that amount of weight would go far in taming the recoil of the Mosin though. And with the lightweight synthetic stock all the weight would be out front which sounds to me like it could be a good thing but since I've never had any experience with bench rifles I don't know for sure. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:38 am

Randy wrote:
Yup, looking forward to it. I like heavy guns but that much may be a little cumbersome. I like bench shooting the best since I'm a terrible shot offhand. Embarassed I'm pretty sure that that amount of weight would go far in taming the recoil of the Mosin though. And with the lightweight synthetic stock all the weight would be out front which sounds to me like it could be a good thing but since I've never had any experience with bench rifles I don't know for sure. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Exactly the same here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Thats what im tryin to build. Bench rest gun.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:41 am

I went back to TGI to check again and the barrels are no longer available. OH Well. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:47 am

Damn! Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:15 am

Not to worry. There is another source at classic arms. Bull barrels and receivers as a set for 99.00. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:00 pm

I went ahead and stuck this vid in the first post aswell.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:27 am

I had the first thought for this year Idea Shocked After looking at the super humongous ultra nifty scope you have on that Mosin, I was thinking that the only item you don't have for it is a mirage eliminator. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:13 am

Dont eliminate mirage. Thats helps you estimate wind. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:45 pm

Uhmm.... maybe I meant barrel heat shield? Embarassed What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:53 am

ohhhhhhhh..... lol Well if that barrel gets that hot, we ALL got a problem. lol
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:57 am

I like this stock MUCH better than all the strange colored laminated ones that I see in a lot of pics. Not a big fan of the thumbhole stock, but at least yours looks like wood and not like they couldn't decide which color they wanted it to me...
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:15 am

I do have to say, if I had to do it all over again (which I will anyways Twisted Evil ) im gettin the boyds laminate.

Much denser and more rigid. Dont get me wrong, this is a great stock. But its just so damn fragile. Nicks if you look at it wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:55 am

IDK My Mosin barrel can get pretty hot after ten rounds or so. Hot enough I don't want to hold my hand on it long. It might take somewhat longer for the extra weight barrel to heat up I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:39 pm

Can anyone elaborate in some detail as to what work was required on your builds to headspace.If you had any issues related to bolt head face to barrel contact to overcome when barrel was torqued. How you decided to deal with the extractor cut and the old UK 59 extractor cut (did anyone weld up and re-cut). I ask the later as many have commented that the extractor cuts didn't time out and as mine sits, for a rimmed cartridge there isn't much of a rim seat left on the barrel. My barrel also seems to be chambered slightly deep which may allow me to take some material off if needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:41 pm

6500rpm wrote:
Can anyone elaborate in some detail as to what work was required on your builds to headspace.If you had any issues related to bolt head face to barrel contact to overcome when barrel was torqued. How you decided to deal with the extractor cut and the old UK 59 extractor cut (did anyone weld up and re-cut). I ask the later as many have commented that the extractor cuts didn't time out and as mine sits, for a rimmed cartridge there isn't much of a rim seat left on the barrel. My barrel also seems to be chambered slightly deep which may allow me to take some material off if needed.

Great questions. I edited the first post to add all my details. Ive read a couple horror stories about the headspace. People hacking up the barrels to get it right, and end up giving up, etc etc. I dont understand their situation, but to me, it was a snap. From what I could tell, the barrels were turned down and threaded for a Mosin (or similar) receiver. You then fit it and 'time' it yourself. I think thats pretty standard for a NIB barrel swap process. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] BUT I dont know what others have had to work with. If they had a bone stock UK59 barrel, I think they look MUCH different at the chamber end.

Its a REALLY good idea to get a headspace gauge.

From my experience, armchairing one of these builds can really only take you so far (im not implying you are... I did). Once I got a receiver in my hands and could screw this barrel in, all the steps just started to become obvious, and all the pieces started to fall into place (or were welded, ground, and impacted into place).

Have you taken a cast of the UK59 chamber? I REALLY would like to check one out. I loaded a round out to 3.087 and still didnt hit rifling with the projectile. Sad Dang
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:43 pm

Mine will probably take some work-barrel, bolt, and round 91/30 receiver are all just pick up parts. With the barrel hand tight it closes on a NO GO Gauge, when I start to torque it (possibly 1/8 turn at best) it causes the bolt head face to bind against the barrel on an empty chamber. I cut the rim off a round and it seats about .030" deeper in the chamber so my assumption is the chamber is slightly long to the shoulder.


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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:08 pm

6500rpm wrote:
With the barrel hand tight it closes on a NO GO Gauge, when I start to torque it (possibly 1/8 turn at best) it causes the bolt head face to bind against the barrel on an empty chamber.

Is it your extractor hitting the chamber face? If you remove your extractor, and take care of that last, it may make it easier. ?
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:10 am

Nope-I should have added that I removed the extractor from the bolt head. Barrel has a perfect matching diameter reference mark with the bolt head where it makes contact. I may take a little off the end of the barrel, a little off the leading face of the bolt head, or a bit from each. As time permits, I'll blue print the barrel and bolt head and try to make the best decission I can before cutting. When I get to where I can move the bolt freely on a torqued empty chamber, I'll start working on headspace.

At this point if I find the chamber is slightly deep to the shoulder, I'm thinking this- removing material from the barrel first to get the bolt to close on an empty chamber. Removing material from the barrel shoulder or receiver face to bring into headspace torqued. If along the way I find that by removing material to headspace induces issues between the bolt face and barrel again, that removing material from the bolt face would be next in line.

When all is said and done, if (and at this point I don't expect it to) the extractor cut doesn't time, to pull the barrel-weld up the old extractor cuts and recut to time between 12-6:00.

Yup, my cheap and simple winter project is going to be a time killer for sure.....
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:19 am

I just cut the rim off a shell and checked a mosin barrel, and its about 0.020 to the shoulder. Ive heard these MGB are a tad deeper, as you mentioned.
I dont know the math, but I think .040 gives you one full rotation as far as thread indexing goes. So .030 would give you some good room to work with.

Go ahead and start you a thread on this build. We will gitter figured out. Have you made a sleeve for your barrel yet?
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:34 pm

I like your project! I wish I would have gotten on the wagon before everybody ran out of these barrels! It seems as though they are all gone now... Sad

I just watched the videos... That thing sounds great!
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:51 am

call Classic Arms PHONE 704-684-0650 And ask them if and when they will be getting any more.

Hopefully if we bug enough people, more will majicly show up.
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Also, troll the gun forums. I suspect some guys will be selling theirs. I found a guy who boogered up the threads REALLY bad on his, and was selling it for $45. Ive emailed the hell outta him. And no response. On AKfiles i think it was.

If I can get unchambered, rifled blanks (.311) cheap enough, and if my lathe and I can achieve the chamber work, I will start making them.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:51 am

100yds, New Winchester brass. 47.5gn IMR4350. Sierra Matchking 174gn HPBT.
Only 23rounds shot that day. It was cold. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:35 pm

SilverTip wrote:
100yds, New Winchester brass. 47.5gn IMR4350. Sierra Matchking 174gn HPBT.
Only 23rounds shot that day. It was cold. Sad
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Great grouping!!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:16 am

Thanks Ape.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:18 pm

SilverTip wrote:
If I can get unchambered, rifled blanks (.311) cheap enough, and if my lathe and I can achieve the chamber work, I will start making them.

I don't know for certain the groove size (they're made for 7.62x39 or 7.62x25, so might be .308 instead of .311), but Green Mountain Rifle Barrel (I'm not allowed to post a link yet) have what I think are chambered blanks (which you'd have to rechamber for 7.62x54r) for $33 plus about $15 shipping (shipping might come down if you order a bunch at once). These are 25" long, 1.06" (26 mm) diameter, unprofiled and unthreaded (but apparently chambered, based on their description). For the price (under $50 delivered), it might be worth getting one and slugging it; if it's .308, it'd be no problem reselling it (and no FFL requirements, since a barrel is not a firearm).
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:06 pm

Zeiss Ikon wrote:
SilverTip wrote:
If I can get unchambered, rifled blanks (.311) cheap enough, and if my lathe and I can achieve the chamber work, I will start making them.

I don't know for certain the groove size (they're made for 7.62x39 or 7.62x25, so might be .308 instead of .311), but Green Mountain Rifle Barrel (I'm not allowed to post a link yet) have what I think are chambered blanks (which you'd have to rechamber for 7.62x54r) for $33 plus about $15 shipping (shipping might come down if you order a bunch at once). These are 25" long, 1.06" (26 mm) diameter, unprofiled and unthreaded (but apparently chambered, based on their description). For the price (under $50 delivered), it might be worth getting one and slugging it; if it's .308, it'd be no problem reselling it (and no FFL requirements, since a barrel is not a firearm).

GOOD FIND ZEISS! [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
They are .300/.311 bore. Which should be a perfect fit. And the twist rate is perfect aswell. Smile


LOL! Check this out. Someone paid $305 for one of those UK59 (VZ59) MGBarrels!
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:53 pm

They have similar barrels (also .311 groove) listed as being for .32-20, in 25 inch length, also. Button rifled, but they're quite a lot higher price, too. My own preference is for longer barrels, generally, but I'm old fashioned in a lot of ways... Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:20 am

(since I havent found another barrel) I am tearing my Bullmoose down to take better pictures (or hopefully video) to better help those still building these. I reread my first post and realize, its definately not gonna help anyone who is new to this, like I was.

I hope to have it uploaded in a few days.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:45 pm

does anyone know where to get a replacment bull barrel for a mosin? i looked at lothar walther and that seemed a little over the top? that and i dont understand the numbers from the drop down selection box when you try to custom order a barrel
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:40 pm

If you can live with the diameters, the Green Mountain barrels (back up the thread a bit) are quite decently priced; they go up to 1.25" diameter and 30+ inches long in .311 groove. I don't know that that's a genuine bull barrel, but it's easily double the diameter of my 91/30 barrel, so should add considerable recoil resistance (= mass) and stiffness. You'll need to be able to thread, chamber, and cut the extractor relief, but presumably won't need to worry about sights since you'll be using a scope (and profiling is moot if you're after a bull barrel).
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:52 pm

Zeiss Ikon wrote:
If you can live with the diameters, the Green Mountain barrels (back up the thread a bit) are quite decently priced; they go up to 1.25" diameter and 30+ inches long in .311 groove. I don't know that that's a genuine bull barrel, but it's easily double the diameter of my 91/30 barrel, so should add considerable recoil resistance (= mass) and stiffness. You'll need to be able to thread, chamber, and cut the extractor relief, but presumably won't need to worry about sights since you'll be using a scope (and profiling is moot if you're after a bull barrel).

thanks!! very helpful i'll look into it [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:22 am

Lothar looks like a great deal. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

7,62x25Tokarev/7,62x39/7,62x54RM.N.

1.181 Dia


25.8 Length


4 grooves


.300 land


.312 groove


9.4 twist rate


207.00 Price Chrome Moly


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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] these are only 16" and for AK's. One might be able to talk them into doing one longer with no other cutting. ?
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:44 pm

Sorry its taking so long to get a video together. Ive had a helluva time
getting the barrel turned down to its final dimensions. I had to make a
live center for the chamber, and modify the lathe dog. And got 2
bearings going out on the lathe (intermediate shaft, nothing major). I also need to buy a new vid camera. lol

I was able to get a pretty neat finish on the barrel, so I think I will keep it.

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video
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:00 pm

Offset center to turn the taper? I've never tried that -- I'm afraid of how long it'll take me to get my lathe turning straight again. I'd probably build a long taper attachment by preference (though there've been a lot of barrels tapered on offset centers).
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:12 pm

Im not turning a taper. Just turning it straight. The last 6in's or so are factory taper.
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:10 am

Some more progress. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:12 am

Finally getting to do some more tinkerin to try to finish this gun up and move on to the next one. I welded a couple of flat pedestals to the gun. One at the front of the receiver, and one over the stripper clip slot. To those, the leupold mount will be bolted.

I found a Redfield (leupold) mount that I was able to make work. I wish I could tell you what it goes to, but it was in a pile of gun parts, and had some rust on it. So ya..... nothing can be easy lol.  The only markings on it were ofcourse 'Redfield' and on the underside where the ID stamp usually is, it looked like it said 'MK'.  So if anyone knows what that one is, holler.

Anyways, heres some pics. It was a nice 28 deg F out there while doin this tonight.  Shocked 

The rear excess of the mount will be trimmed. And probably the excess in the front aswell. I didnt have the front ring snapped in place yet, so thats why its sitting higher. The whole point in using this kind of mount is be able to align the scope with the bore as close as possible, to make the gun more accurate at various holdover ranges.

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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:18 am

I like what you have done with this rifle st! The mount looks like it may be a bit high though. Maybe some lower rings? Keep up all the great work!!

-Dane
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PostSubject: Re: Bull Barrel Mosin Thumbhole stock   Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:46 am

Thanks Dane,

The mount is actually about 0.200 lower than the ATI mount.
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I'd never used a Leupold mount before, and so noticed/realized, that since the front ring swivels, and the rear ring actually goes a bit crooked when you adjust tighten the windage screws, I needed some scope ring alignment pins. These were just quick and dirty, but kept anything from binding.

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